Atheist Rant
Irradiated by LabRat
More often than not it seems I’m usually taking a swing at “my” side (if one can define a shared absence of a particular sort of belief as any sort of side) and bitching about rude, entitled atheists, but today I’m going to bitch about a meme I’ve gotten really fucking sick of hearing from believers having an attack of smug.
The meme is this: atheists are people that don’t/can’t/don’t want to believe in anything greater than themselves, therefore they can’t/won’t accept God- or, in the most Chickian extreme, that they believe THEMSELVES to be godlike.
And it’s complete fucking bullshit. I’ll grant you that I can definitely come up with certain individuals that have disappeared nearly completely up their own assholes and seem to have found it divinely glorious, but there doesn’t seem to be much of a difference in believer status there- the smarmiest and most ego-tastic of them merely speak as though they were the nearest earthly approximation. (They certainly don’t seem to mind handing out judgments as though they were.)
It’s trivial to anyone who’s advanced beyond the mental age of two to recognize that there are things greater than themselves. Start with family, move on up to community, then we’ve got nation, the world, and the entire sweep of human history, culture, accumulated wisdom (and folly)- and all that’s just a brief little infinitesimal blip compared to the history and diversity of life, or of the earth, or try the universe’s vastness that’s almost impossible for the human mind to even contemplate, before even moving on to “infinity”.
What I don’t believe in is an omnipotent intelligence that is even vaster and more incomprehensible than the universe itself. If you want to get more specific about what I don’t believe in, I don’t believe that such an entity then spent a few thousand years involving itself in tribal politics in the Middle East before redeeming all of humanity via blood sacrifice- or, for that matter, in any of the other accountings of its various deeds that do not happen to be the majority faith in my culture.
I believe that I am little and not remotely godlike and the things I do not know- and my capacity to be vile if I do not consciously exercise the choice not to be- are vast and great and will remain so for my entire life and probably the entire span of our existence as a species. I just don’t believe in God.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Well said.
November 21st, 2009 at 3:20 am
As a committed Catholic, I’ll agree with you that this attack on atheists is unfair. Every atheist who’s ever spoken in defense of human rights is a counter proof.
Keep up the great and balanced critiques!
November 21st, 2009 at 6:55 am
I look at the entire issue much as FG looks at open carry . Maybe , just maybe its not my business to worry about what anyone else believes . I find it much more valuable to put stock in how they act and interact.
November 21st, 2009 at 11:12 am
There are piss-poor “ambassadors” on both sides of the theological debate, and they tend to get the most face time, which is a disservice to the majorities in both parties.
November 21st, 2009 at 11:16 am
The problem is the fallacy of unfounded implication.
It is presumed to be implied by many (including many atheists for that matter), that based on some arbitrary factor, someone will be an atheist.
It is then presumed by THAT arbitrary factor, that other attitudes and behaviors will follow.
Further, it is often presumed that when those supposedly indicative attitudes and behaviors are witnessed, then that person is an atheist.
This is (as the term fallacy suggests) of course, false.
Not to say (as you pointed out), that these behaviors and attitudes are not commonly associated; but atheism is neither necessary, nor sufficient for them to be present; nor are those attitudes and behaviors necessary or sufficient for atheism.
These things are not transitive, associative, or reciprocal.
Atheism in and of itself implies no belief, behavior, or attitude; excepting the lack of religious faith or conviction inherent in the concept.
November 21st, 2009 at 11:23 am
Oh and I formulated that statement as I did so that it could be generically applied.
You might have noticed, the fallacy of unfounded implications (which is technically a combination of several connected fallacies of logic) applies to a HELL of a lot of things around this great big world.
You could swap out atheism for libertarianism, or race, or ethnicity or any number of other arbitrary characteristics and get the same results.
Human beings tend to make a lot of unfounded assumptions and sweeping generalizations only very tenuously connected to any kind of causality.
November 21st, 2009 at 5:20 pm
My philosophy is live and let live, I won’t force my beliefs on you, don’t force yours on me…
November 21st, 2009 at 8:18 pm
“What I don’t believe in is an omnipotent intelligence that is even vaster and more incomprehensible than the universe itself.”
I have been searching for that precise expression of a point of view for more than 40 years. Thank you.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:35 pm
To the extent that I’m an atheist (these days I think “aggressively apathetic” is the best way to describe my stance), it’s because I’ve never found within myself a capacity for faith. My father brought me to church damn near every sunday until I turned twelve, at which point he gave me the option to decline; to his surprise, I did. (We’ve discussed this a few times since — he figured that if I went to church during my “formative” years, I’d find faith in god; I didn’t, and given the option I’d rather sleep in.)
Eight or so years later, I took my best shot at Wiccan paganism; once again, it just didn’t “take” with me the same way it did with the people around me. About that time, I read Kierkegaard’s Fear and Trembling for a philosophy course, and I saw the light (so to speak): “Oh, that’s what faith is.” I still wouldn’t claim that I grok faith, but Kierkegaard’s description gave me a pretty good idea of the degree of my ignorance — and confirmed to me that it’s something I Just Don’t Get.
I’ve been an arrogant abrasive Christian dickhead, an arrogant abrasive Wiccan dickhead (snapping at people for wearing costumes on Hallowe’en — yeah, that’s a winner). and an arrogant abrasive Atheist dickhead. In each case it came from my own perception of my group identity, and had nothing to do with the group itself.
…I feel like something more needs saying to tie my comment to your post, but I’m not there yet.
November 22nd, 2009 at 7:26 am
Y’know, I always actually thought the anti-atheist line got it exactly backwards.
We start with the idea that exalting your role in the universe is bad. If we just grant that premise, we’re presented with two groups:
One group sees itself as a species of animal that’s gradually invested in big brains as a survival strategy, and has just recently begun to tease out some minimal, fragmentary understanding of the massively, incomprehensibly vast and complex universe, in which they barely grasp the workings of the one tiny, whirling rock they’re clinging to.
The other group sees itself as a species specially created by a being whose greatness dwarfs the universe’s, and in his own image at that. Moreover, among all humans they’re the chosen people, who will live eternally in the presence of this cosmos-shattering being, so great is his love for them.
Honestly, if the sin is pride, who’s got more of it here?
(Not to mention, of course, the fact that this entity, which created and tends to the unimaginably sprawling universe, crafting by hand and setting in motion stars and nebulae and galaxies more numerous than grains of sand, and has guided its intricate course for almost fourteen billion years with the dedication of a supreme watchmaker, is intimately interested in their sex lives.)
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:27 am
Shorter Bluntobject (I think) which also applies to me: “My Believer is done broken”. Grew up Mormon, with a father that’s an engineer. The “Engineer” stuck better than the “Mormon”. Just don’t seem to have whatever it is all the religious folks have that let ‘em have “faith” in things that they can’t see.
*shrug* If there is a god, then hopefully he’ll forgive me for behaving as he made me. And if there’s a god who gave the entire human race the power of reason, and then expects us to deny its fruits and take things (like his existence) on blind faith, well, I can’t say I’ve got all that high of an opinion of that.
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:46 am
I love the story from Mom’s favorite pastor…
Athesit - “I don’t belive in god and nothing you say will change my mind”
Pastor - “Then we both have one thing in common”
Athesit - “What’s that?”
Pastor - “We are both people of belief”
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:38 am
LabRat,
I’m actually pretty comfortable in my solipsistic little world.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:29 am
To be fair to the Chickians (not that they deserve it), belief in yourself as God is a fairly popular neo-pagan theological position. However, a person who believes in his own deity is by definition not an atheist.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:54 am
I’d make some reference to Pascal and his famous Wager, but said Wager depended on a fairly narrow definition of Religion.
More accurately, Pascal posited a binary choice; most likely lumping together agnostic thought and atheistic thought, and pretending that all the Religion stuff could fit in the other box.
For humorous sidelight: I’ve been told that in the distant past there was a group of people (a new religion, and an offshoot of the most-respectable minority religion of its day) whose religion was deemed unacceptable. Curiously, the majority religion of the day saw the first principle of this little offshoot as a denial of the existence of (and/or the divinity of) the Deities that said majority religion worshiped.
Since the majority religion was government-supported (and included the Big Emporer as a minor entity in the Official Pantheon), they sarcastically called this little offshoot-religion a bunch of atheists.
Yep, the early followers of Jesus of Nazareth were derided as atheists.
Is it funny, sad, or ironic that very few modern Christians are aware of this?
I think it says that in the slow twisting and turning of religious history, everybody gets a chance to be the persecuted minority. And it is easy for that memory to be lost. Even in a country composed significantly of people whose ancestors ran away from religious persecution to find a place where they could practice their religion (or lack thereof) in peace.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Even in a country composed significantly of people whose ancestors ran away from religious persecution to find a place where they could persecute others in the same way they were persecuted.
karrde: There, fixed that for you. And if pagans, wiccans, satanists, odinists, scientologist or any other “group” came into power it would be the same ol’ same ol’. Only the groups that are persecuted would shift. It’s one of the saddest things about the human condition.
I’m still rooting for the asteroid.
s
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:43 pm
For the record, I consider myself to be only slightly more persecuted than a Hindu cow.
I get rude behavior from time to time, not anything that does anything more than irritate me.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:54 pm
God knows, there’s nothing out there after you’re gone.
[how’s that for self contradiction? :)]
November 25th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Slightly off- topic- I find it interesting that in his latest book (Greatest Show on Earth) Dawkins holds out in his intro an olive branch to the religious- specifically Anglicans and Catholics- who believe in evolution. Unexpected and gracious.
November 25th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Is he back to writing about evolution rather than railing against religion? He used to do that with such skill. Stephen Jay Gould was better when it came to a leisurely wander around the vast warehouse of curiosities that is evolution, but no one matched Dawkins at putting advanced concepts in terms a layman could readily understand.
November 26th, 2009 at 9:47 am
I am buying the book because it looks like he has- and when he does he is the best.
December 6th, 2009 at 10:36 am
THE WARNING OF QURAN ABOUT ATOMIC BOMB
BY Allama Muhammad Yousuf Gabriel
[email protected]
I found the warning about the atom bomb in the Quran, and now, it has become a duty incumbent on me, as my faith implies, to make it known to the whole vast mankind. My duty however is to tell only, and then it remains for them to do as they would deem fit. Whether to a hell ablaze, themselves, and along with them their children, in order to be roasted alive, one and all, in a world of cancer-ridden monsters, or by avoiding the hell, that is the atomic hell, on to the path of peace and safety, to their ultimate destination. How little did the atomists know, when engaged in the study of Nuclear Energy, what they were doing? They did no more than apply the keys to the gate of atomic hell. A gate which they eventually did succeed in throwing wide open. The powers then appeared to round up the lowing mankind from every side, like mad cowboys, towards this mighty gate of atomic hell, and whipping them mercilessly with a show of chivalry of course, endeavored to push them through the gate, with promises of bliss inside: gardens, palaces, rivers, peace, prosperity and indeed everything that could be the desire of one’s heart. What else it could be, if it is not sheer madness, that they disbelieve in the promises of Allah about he gardens in the next world as mere fantasy, whereas they believe in the promises of bliss in the Nuclear Energy in this world.
The prophecy of the Quran about the atom bomb, that is the atomic hell, fortunately enough for mankind, is in the form of a warning, and is based on cause and effect, deed and consequence, and not at all a decree preordained. The Quran has manifestly given the causes that are responsible for the resultant emergence of Nuclear Power and its consequent fruit, the hell bomb. The danger therefore could certainly be averted through repentance and the removal of the basic causes, the causes which have been enumerated by the Quran in most explicit of terms. Nay, the danger even could be averted, a little before the atomic Holocaust has taken place. It is just as the sins of a sinner could be pardoned by the Merciful Allah, on repentance even a little while before death.
The prophecy, rather the warning about the atomic hell in the Quran is primarily to be interpreted as, and assumed to be, an event of the next eternal world, but, just as fire and garden are there in this world to represent hell and heaven respectively, this atom bomb on earth is to represent the atomic hell in the next world, with the difference indeed, that whereas the victims of the atom bomb on earth might taste death, the victims of the atomic hell of the next world are doomed to burn therein for ever without ever dying. And also, that, while among the victims of Atom bomb in this world there might be people innocent; the inmates of the atomic hell in the next world are, one and all going to be men, judged individually and found deserving of the particular punishment. Those innocent people however who unluckily fell victims to the atom bomb in this world would find ample compensation in the next world for their loss and suffering, in this world, through Allah’s unabounding mercy, just like those innocent believers who would fall victims along with other bad people whose evil deeds have incurred the wrath of Allah and the subsequent chastisement, will according to the promise of Allah be compensated on the day of judgment for undeserved sufferings. Those unfortunate people however, whose deeds will justify their punishment in the form of Atom bomb in this world will be doubly punished, that is, both in this world and the next world. If on the one hand they will suffer the punishment of burning in the atomic fire in this world, on the other hand they will be hurled in the atomic hell in next world to burn therein eternally.
And pray, now, do not call me superstitious or fanatic, or a bigot in anyway (for I may be a man more or at least as enlightened as you yourself might be) if I venture to place before you a fact, curious through and strange indeed, yet not in any way impossible, nor fantastic. To wit, that during my ordeal, an ordeal very gruesome, very blood-curdling and extremely horrible, and you may wonder, what! I say the ordeal of writing this book which you are now going to read. A book which you may think not very different in any way from many other books, yet, there might be men in this very world, possessed of a sight clear enough to discern the truth of my ordeal in the pages of this book, and they might hear the shrieks, cries, laments and thunders of a different kind, not to be found in many other books. But what I want to tell you now is that, during my writing this curious book - a book written in frightening circumstances, circumstances even more adverse than those of Great Milton, when he wrote his “Paradise Lost” - I have remained throughout the subject of two strange powers. One of these I found to be helpful in a mysterious way and working like an under-current. A very encouraging power indeed. The other power, aggressive, hostile, cunning and mischievous. Always in a state of extreme exasperation, always furious to the point of dreadful frenzy, a perfect fright, a picture of horror, a fury insatiate, a terrifying witch with fearful teeth, fiery eyes and covered all over with hair, always in excitement, always in a threatening mood, as if in readiness to snatch away my papers right from my hand, but would not dare, due to the awful majesty of Allah, in whose service I moved. Think me not at all unaware of the age in which I live. A purely materialistic age. An age in which a thing like this would be deemed a mere hallucination, mere fantasy, something sheerly unbelievable. But, what if the spiritual lights have been dimmed to a faint glimmer. What if the celestial edge of human mind has been dulled to extreme bluntness? Yet the human intellect is not as yet so blurred as not to realize the truth of my statement if I explain the thing a little further. Brethren, and fellow human-beings! The power which I say was helpful to me was the personification of the merit of the present day humanity. A power which endeavoured to lead them away from their impending doom, that is the atomic hell. While, the other power which was hostile towards me, was the personification of the guilty part of the conduct of the present day mankind. It endeavoured to the utmost of its ability to drag them towards the pit of punishment ablaze with atomic hell. Both these powers incessantly struggled in a tug of war, and the fate of humanity will be decided according to whichever of these two powers would finally succeed. Do you understand it now? I thought, not the understanding of some sage extraordinary was required to comprehend such a simple thing, but, why, the question arises, these powers thought me to be a fit object of their attention. The answer is equally simple, that both these powers realized the worth of that warning of the Quran which I held in my hand and was engaged in preparing the same for its presentation to mankind. So great has been the worth of this warning in the eyes of the devil that the fiend has been in mourning ever since I undertook this work and has done all that was in his power to deter me from my enterprise. There is every possibility, that mankind may shake its dizzy head at the sound of this warning, and may ponder over the problem, and realizing their folly may repent and thus be saved. A thing not at all to the liking of this constant enemy of the sons of Adam. Indeed so overzealous had this devil been in its endeavours against me, that but for the unabounding grace of Almighty Allah, the pages of this my book might have been scattered all over, the plane which was once the scene of a removable battle fought between Alexander the Great and the brave Poras centuries ago. And now that I have done my part, it remains for me only to wonder what pranks this resourceful fiend is going to play with mankind in the matter of their acceptance of this book and their subsequent conduct in heading the warning of Allah: their creator, about the Atom Bomb. Our hearty prayer today ought to be, May God give us wisdom, such that we may be saved from the atomic hell. And so also our children and all mankind. That which I have suffered was necessarily the part of my training and will always be.
That the Quran has prophesied about Atom Bomb must naturally come as a surprise to the world. A miracle has happened in an age of no miracles. It indeed is a miracle and a miracle of no ordinary kind. A miracle in no way less wonderful than that of raising the dead from the graves. Indeed something has been raised to life, that lay dead and buried in its grave for no less than fourteen centuries. A call sounded at a most propitious moment, when humanity stood in readiness to make a leap into the Nuclear Hell which they have themselves created. Only if humanity would condescend to listen and pay heed to this resounding trumpet of the most beneficent Allah, the most Merciful Creator of mankind, they may still with certainty avert a most painful end. Judging from the present state of distressed mankind, and the nature of horrors, that stand in readiness to fall upon it, no topic could justly be considered as of a more momentous import or in any way of a graver aspect than the one which unfortunately is most neglected, and is entirely ignored by mankind viz. the Nuclear Energy and Atom bomb. Far more grievous is the aspect that of the treacherous Nuclear Radiations in comparison with the atomic blast and raging fires. These radiations constitute a hazard of quite a different nature, of a far more serious nature to humanity. Mankind have the solace of No-atomic -war-pacts and these are not reliable. They have the satisfaction of safeguards against he Nuclear Radiations, and no safeguards could be a guarantee against the Nuclear radiations. What hope of peace is there in a world of many nations and diverse considerations, particularly when the devil is at large to hatch his plots to bring about the ruin of human race. The atomic war in such circumstances may at any time start and seal the doom of miserable humanity. The only sure way of annihilating the danger of atomic warfare lay in the removal of basic causes responsible for the appearance of atomic bomb. The worth of the warning of the Quran about atom bomb manifested itself most conspicuously in the fact that of the enumeration of the causes of the emergence of atom bomb. This warning of the Quran ought to be deemed a God-sent opportunity at a most critical juncture, and if mankind failed to recognize its true worth, there could not be found a precedent as unhappy as that, in the whole history of human race.
Devil, as I have said, is as free in this age of confusion as it never was in the past, and its chances of success are as great in this age of constant tumult and unrest as were never before. We will tell a story about the devil even at the risk of incurring the title that of old fashioned and outmoded. The story however may be interesting, instructive and to the point, and one which reveals the extent of the ingenuity of the methods adopted by the devil in bringing about the ruin of men. It is feared that in the presence of such a resourceful fiend, the most genuine and well-meant efforts of Nixons and Kosignes to banish the Atomic Warfare, might well, be doomed to final frustration.
Once, it is said, a man remonstrated with the devil for creating all the broil and clamour amongst men to break the peace of the world. To which the fiend replied, “Brother! I do not more than dab the wall with a syrupy finger, and the rest of it all is done by humans themselves”. This said, he beckoned the man to follow him, and straightway went to the shop of a confectioner. The confectioner sat busily preparing sweet-meats. The devil stood silently watching for a while and then stealthily dipped his little finger in the syrup and silently entering the shop, just made a little dab on a wall by his syrupy finger, and retired to an obscure corner within, and there sat himself down, secretly musing. Presently a few flies gathered on the dab. A lizard propped up from somewhere and sat on the lurk silently behind the flies. The cat of the confectioner mysteriously emerged and crouched behind the lizard. Outside, came a customer to buy sweetmeats for his children, and along with him came his bulky dog smelling and sniffing all the way. The dog sensed the presence of the cat inside, and at once fixed its anxious eyes upon it, and stood wagging its tail in excitement. The scene was by now set, and then a deep suspense for a while ensued. The moment at last arrived. The lizard suddenly made a jump on the flies, the cat like a flash pounced upon the lizard, the dog came at once fell swoop upon the cat. The exasperated owner of the cat threw his syrupy ladle at the dog and maimed it forthwith. The infuriated master of the maimed dog struck the exasperated owner of the cat with club on the head and killed him on the spot. The plot was by now well on its way to final success. The police naturally arrived in the wake, and the awful creak of the hinges of the jail-door, and the hanging noose, and the widowed women and orphaned children, and a life-long mourning, etc. The devil leaving his seat and approaching its complainant- who stood with its eyes wide open in wonder at the mysterious play-slightly patted his shoulder and peeping deep into his startled eyes said, ” Look friend, I did but dab the wall with a syrupy finger, and the rest is all done by humans themselves. Why then to whole blame on me for that which others do?”.
Mankind today is in a state of great distress everywhere, both in the east and the west, heart-burning; anxiety and frustration are everywhere as common and as cheap both in the castle and the cottage as the wind that now blows. The spell of science is over and the panic is on the increase amongst humanity in exact proportion to the relative increase in material progress. The higher the piles of commodities and greater the number of factories, deeper the sense of poverty, and fear of hunger. The much repeated terms of the modern times, namely, the peace, progress, plenty and prosperity have come to assume forms, perverted in reality. The scientific progress indeed gave a delighting swing in the beginning, at a time when Macaulay and along with him an innumerable host of master minds had, nothing but praises for the fruitful philosophy of the modern age of science. Bacon the supposed initiator of the modern philosophy of fruit, and the recognized trumpeter of the modern age was unanimously hailed as the greatest philosopher of his times and the true benefactor of all humanity. But alas! the short-sighted followers of Bacon had taken too short sighted a view of Baconian philosophy and having discarded the grand trunk road of a balanced outlook had fallen instead on the delusive paths of pure, ungodly and unspiritual materialism towards immediate gain, and then, quite naturally so, the honey gradually assumed a bitter taste and the illusion of a fast approaching paradise began to show signs of a deceptive mirage. The reaction of nature against those who had proceeded to achieve its conquest for material gains only within this world, and in the absence of spiritual considerations, began to appear in a revengeful mode, and inwardly stirred up, heart-burning, discontent and frustration in the minds, and outwardly led them on to the paths which ended in front of that grisly horror, the atom bomb. Slander, back-biting, mutual mistrust and distrust, excessive greed and complete engrossment in a systematic accumulation of wealth of this world, and an exaggerated and indeed undue confidence in wealth amounting to worship, - in short, all the qualities which the Quran has given out as requisites of the appearance of atom bomb- fused together and finally appeared in the form of Nuclear Energy and its corollary the atomic bomb, together with their issuing fragrance, the atomic radiations. The Nuclear Energy once hailed as a great boon turned out to be a bane and not at all a boon. A feature which darkened even the brighter aspects of science and which eventually is justly to be feared as the killer of science itself along with human race. This Nuclear Energy if not abolished in time and not supplanted by some harmless means of power, is going to destroy the whole world, there is no doubt about it. Or do I Exaggerate my fears? I say, go ask a scientist. I am no fanatic. I have a balanced mind just as balanced as it would be wished for, But I see a humanity playing an ostrich and I am engaged only in shooing them out of this sand in which they now stand with their heads buried deep and eyes closed, imagining themselves safe in their blindness, and thinking that, just as they cannot see the approaching wolf, the wolf also is not seeing them.
Humanity, only if it had a little faculty of imagining the horrors of the Nuclear Power, whether used for war or for peace, they would have preferred poverty and indigence without Nuclear Power to plenty and opulence with nuclear energy. Humanity has tolerated the conventional bombs and air-raids in the hope of facilities to be provided by science, but the nuclear energy has come as a killer of all hope. Unfortunately, the general humanity knows little about the nefarious features of Nuclear Energy. They will for ever live absorbed in their own problems of the necessities of life, food and clothing, and will eventually be driven like herds of cattle into the Atomic pit, after a painful existence in an atom ridden age. Let now the rational scientist and the wise politician have courage to stand up to mankind and declare that the atomic-ridden science is soon going to throw all the most contemptible arts of magic, and all the most abhorrent features, and all the most despicable forms of witchcraft of the dark ages into shade, and that, all the toil and labour and patience, perseverance and all the sacrifice of hundreds of past generations of humanity and a history-long Endeavour to build up a civilization worthy of man, is going to be ultimately destroyed by a tiny little invisible atom due merely to the folly of the most knowledgeable and most enlightened age of the whole History of mankind on earth. It is a painful reflection and it reminds me of a little distich of Wordsworth.
“To let a creed built in the heart of things,
Dissolve before a twinkling atomy”.
Indeed the creed built in the heart of things has been let to dissolve before a twinkling atomy, and we just say, wonderful Wordsworth.
Allama Muhammad Yousaf Garbriel
Gabriel House Idara Ufqar e Gabriel Quaid e Azam Street Nawababad Wah Cantt Taxila District Rawalpindi Pakistan.
[email protected]
http://www.oqasa.org
December 8th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
TLDNR.