Naked
Irradiated by LabRat
First, a couple of things regarding the continuing brouhaha:
1. If you argument about how we cannot possibly have openly gay servicemembers is identical in structure and rationale to arguments made in 1948 as to why we cannot racially integrate the armed forces, it will either be ignored or for my own amusement I will argue with you as though it is 1948.
2. It’s really interesting how outlook on the armed forces by civilians inverts the standard political affiliation patterns depending on the issue. If our men in arms are truly bestial creatures unable to restrain their killing rage when faced with that which they are suspicious of or unfamiliar with, or unable to restrain their urge to rape whatever looks good, then maybe the anti-war liberals have an excellent point when it comes to inflicting these people on the locals in foreign places under combat stress.
3. I will reiterate for those who are still arguing as though the issue is “we can’t have gays in military or there will be rape and murder in the showers”: we have had gay people in the military and in the showers clandestinely basically forever, officially-but-with-pretend-games for seventeen years, and openly in 23 other countries, some very much like us and and some less so. The predicted chaos and loss of effectiveness simply hasn’t happened. So far as I’m concerned it is very much akin to the “shootouts in the streets!” concealed and open carry hysteria, and you are unlikely to convince me otherwise if you just try to explain it again.
All that said, one comparison frequently brought up is women showering with straight men, soldiers or not. And it’s true, women are generally unwilling to shower with men they’re not sleeping with, and it IS different than showering with other women.
What interests me about the whole question is I spent most of yesterday mulling over the fact that it IS true I wouldn’t want to shower with a collection of strange guys, and yet at the same time it also has never bothered me even slightly to be showering or changing in front of other women who might be- or I outright KNEW to be- lesbian or bisexual. I just don’t worry that they might be looking, in fact it bothers me less than it does to have a strange guy openly staring at my chest when I’m fully clothed. It also strikes me that women in general (with notable exceptions) tend to feel less threatened by that unwanted same-sex interest than men tend to be. At first I thought it was solely because we’re far more conditioned to cope with unwanted interest in general, but I don’t think that’s entirely it, either.
I think it’s because, for a number of reasons, many men will take full or partial nudity in a woman as an invitation. Part of it is just that lovely, sick undertone in our culture that drives the “she was asking for it” defense of rape, or colors people’s perceptions of whether it was really rape or not depending on how much skin is showing. Part of it is that, unfortunately, far too often “no” actually DOES mean “try harder” and some men experience that often enough to be a tad confused when it comes to when “no” actually does mean “holy fuck go away I’m not interested”. Part of it is that there simply is no context in our culture in which men and women are nude together that is NOT explicitly sexual. Either way, any woman learns by the time she’s done with adolescence and early adulthood that if she doesn’t want to be groped or worse, she needs to set and maintain clear boundaries- which definitely do not include hopping in the shower with a guy you’d mind having sex with. I’d mind showering with a strange guy not because it would really bother me that much to have him see me naked- I figure if he’s interested I’ve probably already been naked in his imagination anyway- but because absolutely nothing in my experience prepares me to trust that he will keep his hands to himself.
We do, however, have lots of cultural context for same-gender nudity that is absent of sex. Everywhere I mentioned: school, gym, camp, and yes, the military. It’s why I stressed it in my last post: anybody who has taken a public shower or steam soak has probably done it at some point with someone who was gay or bisexual and potentially interested- and unless you’re living in a porn or had an unusual experience, nothing happened and you probably never had the slightest clue. This is because, in that context everyone is raised and trained in, you DEFINITELY do not express any form of interest. If a guy assumes a woman who is naked or mostly naked is sexually open because otherwise she has no reason to be naked, nobody assumes their shower-mates in the gym are. They also assume that if they try anyway, they’ll almost certainly be angrily rejected at best and actually beaten up at worst. It’s amazing what astounding powers of self-control the convincing threat of violent consequences impart to those who otherwise claim to have none, and I suspect this is reason number one with a bullet why rape of men is common in prison and vanishingly rare in the military.
It’s not about the possibility of attraction, it’s about gender- and the social and cultural conditioning to cope with the opposite gender and our own we all receive regardless of sexuality.
February 4th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
That was nicely put….
February 4th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Agreed, very nice
February 4th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
Nudity can indeed make one feel insecure and vulnerable, but a truly motivated rapist will not stop at a thin layer clothing (unless really lazy). Have you ever heard a someone say, “I was totally going to rape that dude, but I just know that zipper would get caught on his shirt. Why can’t everyone just wear assless chaps?”
February 4th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
“Part of it is that there simply is no context in our culture in which men and women are nude together that is NOT explicitly sexual.”
True, and maybe that’s part of the problem. Is a straight man’s discomfort with unwanted attention any more reason for segregation than a woman’s?
Don’t get me wrong, I think DODT is stupid, and I’ve agreed entirely with your previous posts on the matter. I think gays have every reason to serve in the military as straights do, or women as it may be. But there are reasons for segregation of men and women in the military (wrong reasons, imo). Do straight men (and women as the case may be) not deserve the same protection from unwanted attention by the same sex as they receive for unwanted attention from the opposite sex?
And yeah, I get that whether they realize it or not they may be getting it already, and it should be dealt with as any unwanted attention that crosses the line should be. But it raises a legitimate argument for ending segregation between the sexes as well, and frankly I don’t think anyone is willing to consider that no matter how legitimate it may be.
As you’ve said before, assault is assault. It should be dealt with accordingly. Shouldn’t all men and women in the military (and the rest of society for that matter) grow up and realize that being naked doesn’t mean “let’s fuck”? Sexual interest is a two way street, plenty of people are going to be interested in you that you aren’t interested in. Unless it crosses the line, shouldn’t people just get over it?
Personally, I think the best thing that could happen in terms of sex equality is complete ending of segregation between the sexes, but of course that’s just because I’m a lecherous man who wants to stare at naked ladies (let’s just ignore the fact that I can do that any time I want by getting online, or if I need the real thing going to a strip club).
February 4th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Personally, I think people would get over co-ed showers in about a week. I base this on experience at kink clubs and parties, which is a deliberately sexualized experience (albeit one generally entered into by more fluffy-lovey-headed people)–it’s surprising how fast you just forget the person you’re talking to is naked. Gender and attraction matter less than acclimation.
I don’t care if 18-year-old males are mindless rutbeasts incapable of human reasoning, after roughly a week of associating naked women not with sexiness but with “4 AM, freezing cold, and three minutes to wash everything,” it’s just not going to be that exciting.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
My name is MedicMatthew and I am the gay. I would like to ask every male who has ever used a communal shower- gym, military, etc.- Have you been the recipient of suprize buttsecks in such a venue? No? Good, now shut the fuck up.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:07 am
“Part of it is that there simply is no context in our culture in which men and women are nude together that is NOT explicitly sexual.”
Coming from a culture where men and women can see each other nude (in sauna) without stares and giggles I know it is possible.
But it is a cultural thing and maybe trying to learn it in a stressful situation like the military at an age when sex is the first thing on the mind might not work.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:41 am
There have been a number of gays/lesbians that have served with distinction in the US military, but 99% of them did NOT come out during their time in the service and were VERY discreet. Below are a couple of personal examples of the other side of the coin…
Let me give you a different perspective… Since I DID have a situations with both a Gay male and lesbian females in the military and it’s impact.
This male had hidden his orientation for almost 4 years, but on a detachment to Kodiak (where I was the OIC), he got drunk and literally put the make on another crew member in a bar. When he was refused, he begged that no one be told. I was notified that night by the mission commander, and brought the individual in to discuss the situation. He at that point acknowledged his position and requested removal from the crew and to be sent home since he was now “uncomfortable” with the situation…
I refused, and forced him to continue to fly for the remainder of the det, I also refused his request to be segregated. The crew he flew on did NOT handle the situation well, and crew cooperation degraded seriously over the remainder of the det, but operational requirements precluded replacing him…
Upon return, I turned over my report to his CO, he was subsequently transferred to another command pending separation. At that command, he used his rank to solicit sex from numerous very junior enlisted men, and was totally unrepentant when he was once again caught. He was separated from the service within about a year, and later sued (with the support of the California alternative lifestyle alliance) to return to active duty.
That single individual’s actions caused a number of problems over at least the next three years (i’m aware of), as he kept attempting to “out” individuals he ‘suspected’ to be gay within the military community via the local papers and TV. His vindictiveness was amazing!
One of my “fellow” officers on a staff (an intelligence officer) was lesbian, and also used her position once she was on shore duty to solicit sex from junior enlisted females in both our command and others. She was courts martialed and received a BCD.
I also had a situation when I was an LPO where two females were caught in the barracks and brought up on charges. They lied to investigators, even when confronted with pictorial evidence, and tried to burn down the NCIS offices to destroy the evidence.
FWIW, lest you think I am a prude, I have relatives who are both gay and lesbian, and have lived next door to and been friends with a gay couple in San Jose. I have no problem with people living their own lifestyles, as long as it doesn’t DIRECTLY impact me, or they try to force that lifestyle on me.
In the bigger picture, Gay/lesbian lifestyles ‘may’ work in some militaries, but even in those ‘accepting’ it; e.g. the Dutch, there is still a wariness and desire from most officers and enlisteds NOT to serve in close working environments with gay or lesbians.
February 5th, 2010 at 6:46 am
NFO, I hear you, but all of the examples you give could just as easily have happened with straight officers and enlisted, couldn’t they? Hell, don’t they? They should be dealt with as any other misconduct. If everyone is held to the same standard of behavior and punished accordingly for acting out of line there shouldn’t be a problem.
February 5th, 2010 at 8:34 am
Everyone should repeat the theme “There are ALREADY gays serving in the military!” ad nauseum so that those who are creeped out by that fact can get over it. By the end of last year it was looking like there wouldn’t be anything in Obama’s presidency that I could support, now (maybe, if he does the right thing) there is.
February 5th, 2010 at 9:33 am
Agreed RobertM, however all four of these individuals played the gay/lesbian public advocacy cards rather than take their punishment like they should have. FWIW, I also sat on a courts martial for a Navy Officer whom I knew that had been caught via a piss test. He didn’t give any excuses, took his BCD and left quietly… Another went to Levenworth for 15 years for DWI manslaughter, again took the medicine, no excuses…
Reputo, have you ever served? Do you have any REAL idea of how close the quarters are? Could you spend 6-9 months with 50 other individuals in a 20X50 foot space? Do you have a clue as to the amount of stress people at sea are under EVERY day?
Yes there are gays and lesbians serving, the SUCCESSFUL ones are the ones who don’t flaunt their orientation…
February 5th, 2010 at 11:06 am
Old NFO: These incident all seem to boil down to “Assholes will be assholes”.
Gays who try to use rank to force sex, and then play the affirmative action card to get out of their deserved punishment, are assholes. That they would mis-use something designed to combat bigotry is not exactly a surprise.
Violent black felons also try to use affirmative action programs as an excuse to get out of the consequences of their bad behavior when they can … again, assholes will be assholes.
Using rank to force sex is rape … doesn’t matter what the gender of the rapist is, you apply the UCMJ to the perp and send it to Leavenworth.
As for flaunting gender … that crap is obnoxious from folks who are either gay or straight. I can’t see a heterosexual with that problem advancing very far either.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:16 am
I could also point out a number of cases where straight dudes that tried to use rank or blackmail to force sex got out of it pretty much scot-free on basis of it being easier to pay the victim to go away than to punish the perp. There’s even a story down in the comments of the original post from someone who served about a male enlisted who used DADT itself to try and blackmail himself some sex from a female and lesbian enlisted.
Not only will assholes be assholes, they will often use whatever means are available to try and evade the consequences- up to and including the old boys’ club. Either sexuality itself is a problem and those straight men raping the ladies both serving and not mean that we need to require chemical castration as a condition of service, or you are employing a pure double standard here.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
NFO, I agree that what happened in those cases was complete and utter BS (playing the ‘gay’ card, if you will). But I think that’s a problem created by the fact that gays are treated differently. A straight woman can use a similar argument to defend her misconduct as a gay man or woman, “they’re only doing this because I’m a woman (or gay or black or Hispanic or a Muslim etc.).”
People are going to have to learn to deal with gays the same way they had to learn to deal with the end of racial segregation. I don’t think it will be easy or happen over night, but it’s going to have to happen. I think a big part of it is going to have to include desegregating men and women in the military in order to eliminate legitimate claims of a double standard.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
I think Robert M has hit on the crux of the problem, to wit, how to integrate a previously existing subset without making aa victim group of it.
There must be a recognition of the fact that teh ghey exist. And no more than that. Any apologies, any outreach, anything other than a simple “carry on” will open the floodgates.
What must be avoided at all costs is the “homointern” – such as that which occurred in pre WWII England, where a cadre formed and promoted within its ranks. For a more recent example, I refer you to the Society of Jesus (Jesuit Order) in the Roman Catholic Church. And, yes, I am a Catholic, since you ask. Or just get a job waiting tables in a restaurant with a lavender lad, or as a window dresser at a large retail establishment. And yes, I’ve done both, thank you very much.
The goal is to avoid the institutionalization of a clique .
There should be another phrase, by the way, for those of .. um…that polarity. I’ve heard “Friends of Dorothy”, but that’s a bit flamboyant. I like the nice Victorian usage “one of Nature’s bachelors”.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:33 pm
“there simply is no context in our culture in which men and women are nude together that is NOT explicitly sexual.”
Being the contrarian that I am, I’ll bring up one: coed saunas / steam baths and hot tubs. Granted, I haven’t run into these in the lower 48, so maybe this is one of those cultural-pollination things that doesn’t spread far below the latitude 60. I suspect so, because folks from the Lower 48 bring their own personal cloud of Awkward in with them when they realize that there are other genders around – and other ages, too! (Somehow it’s not okay to be in a coed steam room when three sixty to eighty year old Inuit or Korean women are gossiping away?)
That said, there’s a pretty strong cultural training that you mind your own business, and if you’re going to look at someone, you look them in the eye, unless invited otherwise. Not that people don’t ever look, but that it’s not polite to let on you’ve looked. Until that cultural indoctrination gets beaten in, The Awkward is epic.
Honestly, most humans aren’t that impressive naked, especially with water-wrinkled skin. No matter how much we may think with our glands, the pink parts aren’t all that impressive or good-looking. Once you get your eyeful of naked humanity, you’ll see that half-dressed is tantalizing, but nude? It’s just naked.
February 5th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
WRT co-ed saunas, I’ve heard tell that the FInns who migrated into the Keweenaw Peninsula area in Michigan loved to build saunas, and would treat co-ed nude sessions in them as normal behavior.
It might (or might not) have been limited to family…I’m told that the behavior was more of a community-thing back in Finland. I’m also told that a few other Finnish cultural traits survived for a long time in that area.
Don’t know how prevalent the behavior still is, but I did learn that sauna is pronounced so that the first syllable rhymes with “cow”. Anyone who pronounces sauna as if the first syllable rhymes with “paw” is wildly out of touch…
Yet another piece of trivia picked up when I was supposed to be studying Serious Stuff in grad school…located in the Keweenaw area, also known as the Copper Country.
February 6th, 2010 at 5:45 am
Kris/Robert- Agree!!!
LabRat- FYI, the Eur Stars and Stripes had a front pager on the Senior Army Enlisted in Europe being charged with using his rank to get sex… He’s going down…
February 6th, 2010 at 11:41 am
women are generally unwilling to shower with men they’re not sleeping with, and it IS different than showering with other women.
Could it simply be a threat assessment on an unconscious level?
When I was sharing a military shower with a bunch of guys — gay or not — everyone in the shower was roughly the same size, same body-mass, same muscle density, same training, etc., etc., ad infinitum. The results of a physical confrontation was basically a coin-toss.
The same was true with the female soliders — everyone in the shower was within a few percentage points of being exactly the same, physically speaking.
A woman in a shower with men — that changes, and fairly radically at that. Any threat assessment — even if on the subconscious level — is probably going to be on the lines of: The probability of things going pear-shaped is very low, but if it does, the probability of me losing is very high. I’ll wait for/find a shower alone, or with others of my threat-level.
I’m not a scientist, so that’s just a musing.
LawDog
February 6th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
Nothing to add to the discussion, really (other than +1 to LabRat), but I just wanted to say that MedicMatthew’s comment was hysterical and made of win.
February 6th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
(Nominates LD for an honorary degree in psychology/behavioral science)
February 7th, 2010 at 11:30 am
Lawdog nailed it.
February 7th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
I think there’s a fair amount of truth to this, though I still think the *social* threat is the most dominating factor. While women do horrible things to each other, it’s far less omnipresent in our consciousness than the things that men will sometimes do to women- often with relatively little consequence.