Pushy
Irradiated by LabRat
This weekend, blogger Breda had an encounter in a bar with a rude gentleman who, despite not really needing the space due to a lack of crowd, essentially tried to squeeze her out of hers. Retreating slightly (making “leaving” gestures) made him press harder. She made firm eye contact and said “excuse me”, and he yielded.
See anything wrong with that description? That is, in fact, what happened. But because she described the look that made him back off in a common fashion- “I will kill you where you stand” (see also “if looks could kill”, “death glare”, “drop-dead stare”), and made a reference to the situation as having some relation to self defense- as an example of a small and simple way to not think like a victim- there was some controversy with an individual in the comments who saw it as a sign she had gotten too aggressive in her mindset and was thinking of literally killing him for the minor offense of getting in her personal space and refusing to leave until asked.
I didn’t see it that way. I didn’t see that anyone could until I read the comments, because I was nodding along with what she was writing as very close to what I’ve seen described in an entirely different community, one that has nothing whatever to do with lethal force and only ever peripherally touches on self-defense: animal trainers.
Most people know that if you stare hard at a dog, this is “a challenge,” and that if he looks away, this is a submissive gesture. This is true enough as far as it goes, but as with eye contact in humans, it’s a good bit more complicated than that. Eye contact is one subdivision of an entire suite of body language- sustained eye contact combined with stiff, hunched posture is either a challenge or a statement of possession depending on the exact context, whereas sustained eye contact combined with a relaxed posture and a doggy “smile” can simply be a shared look between the dog and someone it likes and trusts. By itself, eye contact just means “I am focused on you”- the rest of the meaning, be it aggressive, playful, defensive, or affectionate, is provided by body language.
Eye contact in animals is also very closely linked to personal space- whether it’s a modern dog trainer telling you to “step into his space” to back off a dog from something you don’t want him to have (or to stop him from pushing into yours) or a natural horsemanship instructor telling you to be aware of your space and the horse’s, personal space isn’t just about not wanting to touch someone else’s body or smell their breath, it’s a sense of awareness that has all sorts of social- and predatory- messages built in from way before humans became distinctly human. It works across social species, especially those with any sort of heirarchy, and especially those that can expect either to prey on other social animals or be preyed upon by them. This combination of eye contact and advancing or retreating into the other creature’s space is so powerful that it forms the core of how a herding dog works- it moves the sheep or cattle by manipulating eye contact and by either actively moving into the animals’ space, or simply indicating with eyes and posture that it will if the animal doesn’t either stay where it is or back away. This is one of a great many examples that can be found on Youtube, but if you watch, the important thing here is that the Border Collie is moving the sheep by manipulating its posture, eye contact, and distance and speed from the space of the sheep- never by actually touching them:
A good trainer exploits this relationship with his or her own eyes, posture, and sensitivity to space; the reason Breda’s post rang so familiar to me was that it read, minus the self-defense specific language, exactly like someone who had learned to back off a dog- whether out of their personal space or away from their sandwich- with a significant look and a mild word, all backed up by intent that can’t help but be communicated in their body language. The important part here is that the intent- common to dealing with an asshole stranger in a bar or a dog trying to snaffle your lunch- is not I will kill you if you don’t stop that, but I mean it and if you test me I’ll follow through. In the case of the hungry dog, “follow through” means taking the dog and physically preventing it from having further access to you and your food. In the case of a stranger in a bar, “follow through” means making whatever degree of scene is necessary to bring social pressure to bear on the offending rude person. Only in the case of an approaching predator- a mugger, say- does “follow through” actually relate to drawing a weapon. The underlying mindset- not violence or aggression, but a willingness to react appropriately to whatever boundary-pushing action is being taken- is common to all three situations.
What else is common to all three situations is the invasion of that significant personal space- it’s an aggressive gesture unless an invitation is issued, which is why we define it as “rude” and incivil. The dog may just want the sandwich and the stranger a bar stool in a location he defines as desirable, but in both cases a deliberate attempt is made to push someone else’s boundaries and get them to yield something desirable against their will. This ancient link between personal space and varying degrees of this kind of behavior is why we use the word “pushy” to describe such a person to begin with- and while pushy individuals may normally never advance beyond taking your time, your seat, or your lunch, “pushy” is also a descriptor applied early on to those who are likely to try for more serious things- like your money, sex, or your life. That is why people who do have a self-defense mindset are usually more aware of when they’re being pushed, and that it’s not appropriate- if you’re allowing yourself to be pushed without a word or look, you’re also confirming to the pusher that you either aren’t aware of them or that you’re reluctant to stop them when they act in this fashion. That’s a go-light to anybody who might have predatory intentions rather than merely pushy ones- and if they’re standing in your space anyway, there’s no room or time left to take action to stop them if they act on it.
The original phrase that sparked controversy was one common in the self-defense community: “Be polite. Be courteous. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.” I doubt many people take that literally, but the advice it contains is sound- a statement that covers all variations of dealing with others you may encounter: Be polite. (Don’t provoke needlessly.) Be courteous. (Respect the space and resources of others.) Be prepared to follow through- in the case of a genuine self-defense situation, that’s having a plan to kill the other person. In all situations of lesser threat, it’s not.
The mindset remains the same throughout.
December 14th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Oh yes. And with dogs, as with people — when one is confronted with a two- or four-legged nutjob that is truly willing to do violence on one’s body — it is best to tread lightly. I have worked with dogs who would attack if one dared to affront them by making direct eye contact at the wrong time — but these are (thankfully) very much the exception to the rule.
My experience (much more with the four- than two-legged variety of violence thank you) is that in most cases the more overt the approach, the less truly dangerous the intruder. The quiet, broody ones who go frighteningly still — they’re the ones to watch out for. The dickhead who talks too loud and gets too close in a bar and the four-legged pinball who ricochets through the room with no respect for animate or inanimate objects are more annoying than dangerous — and I’ve got the look and follow through to deal with that down to an art.
December 15th, 2008 at 2:23 am
“There are many spades in the world but this one is mine.
And I shall call her Betsy, and I will hold her and pet her and make her write bad checks.” (Not an actual quote but truthy)
I heart Stingray!
December 15th, 2008 at 5:37 am
And of course every serious non-physical confrontation does to some extent need to be followed up with violence if taken to an extreme conclusion. A pushy man at a bar very well COULD turn into a physical assailant, those flashing blue lights in my rearview mirror could quickly turn to caltrops and service pistols pointed at me if I don’t pull over in good time.
December 15th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Brava, Labrat!
December 15th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Fully agree. My wife’s a middle-school teacher, and she was taught to use a blank, neutral expression when disciplining her students: Not emotional, not overpowering, just look at the student and communicate to them that whatever they do or whatever they say will have no effect on the final outcome of their actions. They’re toast, and they need to know it.
Kinda like that classic scene in Get Shorty.
And it’s the same with dealing with pushy people. A soft word given with no emotion means you’re willing to back up your words with action, rather than just use volume and rhetoric as a means to gain attention to yourself.
December 15th, 2008 at 10:21 am
In cattle handling, this is known as flight-zones, the distance and direction combinations from which an animal is more or less vulnerable to aggression and will consequently move to alleviate the risk.
December 15th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
I wasn’t taught by any human how to use eye contact to my advantage when dealing with dogs, but I learned it from watching the dogs deal with each other. I know how to drop my eyes just right to make a dog I’ve never met before feel comfortable coming up to me, and I know how make eye contact to make a dog who does know me understand that they have done something forbidden and would do well not to do it again. It astounds people who think hitting a dog is the only way to control them, especially the ones who are being controlled by the dog because they believe that. Reading this post, I’m thinking how true it is that seeing how someone treats their dog tells you a lot about them as a person. And I’ve always thought the ones who think hitting is the only way to let the dog know you’re in charge… whether this means they hit the dog, or that they throw their hands up in the air and say, “Well, he just doesn’t listen to me!”… are idiots that I hope aren’t reproducing and teaching that stupidity to their children.
December 15th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
the problem is that her husband is forced to cash the checks that she may write… this makes it easier for her to start a situation that she doesnt have to actually finish. i live down the block from a club. to see the horror on the girls faces as their power game gets out of hand and they realize that the two blokes are not in her control, and never were, and that they are capable of a force and fury that is terrifying… is amazing to watch… but its similar issues…
December 15th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
artfldgr: If you think glaring at a guy who literally shoves into her- and keeps pushing as she tries to retreat gracefully- and saying “excuse me” is “writing checks” or a “power game”, then you have a very “interesting” perspective.
By which I mean to say, either you’re reading something that neither Breda nor I wrote, or you’re projecting your own issues here.
December 16th, 2008 at 4:15 am
artfldgr:Just from having read Breda’s blog for a while, I believe she’s fully capable of “cashing” her own checks, should it come to that, but I also believe you are missing the point entirely.
December 16th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Just read ArtfulDodger’s comment and got a massive flash of de ja vu, and the wonder of What Planet…
December 16th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
how about doing some research and find out what kinds of altercations in public places lead to extreme outcomes.
go ahead… your opinions will not change what i have learned being a bouncer, and watching clubs.
she was lucky that he was willing to back down. period. there are a lot of people that wont, and to continue pushing them or threatening them with a stare WILL result in action.
i knew a guy that would do this. there was a pleasant old irish bloke that would show up at the bar. tyrone wouldnt like people who he didnt like. one day.. i was sitting on tyrones otehr side, and tyrone was fingering an ash tray. i know him, and i leaned over to him and said. think first. look around. you do it, your a dead man from everyoen that loves this man here.
he stopped… but two days later he clocked another person in the head with an ashtray from the bar. the person looked at him “wrong”. dont worry.. tyrone is still floating around the neighborhood… and his victim… in a comma with severe brain damage.
when you start staring down and correcting peopels improper behavior in a bar, your eventually going to get trouble.
if your husband is with you. the basic rules of the animals at the bar is that HE pays your bills. so you open your mouth to the wrong a hole in a bar, he is going to beat your man up beacuse he cant beat you up!!!!
come to ny.. pay the door cover, and i will show you the game.
people play biological games… if you play a throwback game, there is a good percentage of chance your going to get a throwback response.
each week i watch 20 people brawl outside of my apartment. they are much like you guys in opinions… they are average middle class people. put some beer in them, some women to posture for… etc… and you get them pouring out at 4am doing incredible things…
in the summer i can sit on my fireescape and watch the show. and all usually over someone buying drinmks for some girl that went home with her boyfreind… or some girl playing 3 guys off of each other… the list goes on.
i am not missing the point.. the man was rude…
socieyt is not might makes right (or havent you noticed that people standing at podiums trying to debate get beaten out by crowds of people scaring the crap out of constituency?)
Breda cant stand up to a full sized male…
end of story… you might belive she can…
not one woman has made it through the army obstical course!!
he is made for the job…
you can get angry at me all you want..
but remember the actress that recently died… the man that came in the house punched her and shattered her jaw…
breda gets an idiot who really decided to treate her equally… breda will lose… period…
and you guys want to notice something?
i care more for breda than you do… and i havent read her site.
i care what happens to her, and i know that a bar seat is not worth the lesson to a person not paying to learn!!!
take fjolnirsson… will you feel good if it happens again, and her jaw is wired shut?
she might meet the guy from my neighborhood. tyrone..
yeah hes wanted… you want to drop the dime and let him know where you live? i see him all the time… sometimes in the same bar… and he lives to work the crowd for women plying his “im a producer”speel…
breda… bar stools arent worth it… and if the owner lets such happen, find another place to spend your time… dont stand up to people you dont know, when the pay off is NOTHING.
i think you guys are missing the point…
the point is that its not worth starting a potentially escalating sitaution by playing games with strangers and making a bet that they wouldnt respond in a way that they perfectly might respond.
experience is more valuable than hypothesis.
December 16th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
What a very long reply in order to say, essentially, “I didn’t actually read the post, I just want to ramble about my pet issue.”
I’m not angry at you for saying that women are physically weaker than men, I’m annoyed with you for using so many words to say that you are here with an agenda about female power or lack thereof.
Breda doesn’t go to your club. She goes to a yuppie pub where the likelihood of encountering psychopaths willing to smash people in the face over a look is infinitesimal compared with the likelihood of encountering boorish men who are pushy with small women because they can be.
The end of your logic is that women should never, ever assert themselves even mildly to a strange man, no matter where they are, just in case it’s Tyrone. Not playing “games”- Breda wasn’t playing any other game other than “stop touching me”- ANY assertion whatsoever. Essentially, you’re arguing that since men are larger and stronger, women should be completely submissive to them at all times in public.
Suffice to say I disagree. You can post poorly spelled rambling screeds about how big and strong men are and how dangerous it is for women to even look at them- and my patience with that WILL end eventually- but I will always consider the acceptance of that slim risk worth not acting like a rabbit in tiger pit.
December 16th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Stepping off on my own tangent:
How come almost every time I hear the “men are bigger and stronger than women” speech, it’s from some banty rooster whose bald spot I can examine without needing to get up on tiptoe?
In my profession, I get to see a lot of driver’s licenses. You’d be amazed how many guys who are sure they’re 6’1″ barely come up to my nose, and I’m a quarter inch shy of two yards tall in my stocking feet…
December 16th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
I don’t seem to be able to put a link into comments here, so I have sent Labrat an email with a link to a really excellent blog post on this very subject, by a person who goes by TR Kelley and keeps a blogspot blog. She, too, has had occasion to use the Death Stare on a clueless male who was into casual sexual bullying.
It’s a good read.
December 16th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Oh, I’ll just type it in, and those of you who aren’t total slackers can do the same:http://trkelley.blogspot.com/2008/08/equalizers-arent-just-for-audio.html
December 16th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
If you act like prey you will be prey. Predators go after the weak and my bet barguy has pulled that stunt many times before with women that he precived as weak. Brenda surprised him by not acting like his usual prey so he backed off. And Artfdgr as a bouncer your job is to handle the tyrone’s in the bar where you are working in and if your not there the other bouncers should have.
December 16th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Good post. I agree, and, “Dodger”, I’ve been studying how to defuse dangerous situations since my abusive childhood, including years in customer care, uniformed security, club security in a club that had 1600 customers on a decent night, and a combat tour in the infantry. You’ll “show us the game” (of violence) in your own club? You’re either a liar or an idiot.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:33 am
then i guess i am an idiot… your now happier..
but that wont change the outcomes of interactions when the people believe soemthign falsely.
i can show you the game in almost any club… take some time. talk to a bouncer (i was a bouncer when not working day job), a cop, or a judge..
The more you take the more you lose
http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=148707528
“For instance in driving, if you are kind and let someone go in front of you, that driver may be considerate in response. But if you cut someone off, that person may react very aggressively, and this could escalate to road rage,” Keysar said.
The situation can escalate when the person doing the slighting doesn’t appreciate how strongly the slight is being experienced, Keysar said. “The one receiving the slight cannot imagine that the slighter lacks that appreciation. And so it goes, because of such differential perception, they respond more and more strongly. Small slights could escalate to unbelievable, irrational feuds,” he explained.
i can also show studies showing taht a person will spend their own wealth attempting to harm the wealth of others even if this act hurts them more! talk about spite.
but hey! ya want to live in the bubble… and play roulette, that is fine with me… but better be thanful that someone like me who likes people and hates assholes will stand in and stop things when they get to far.
And Artfdgr as a bouncer your job is to handle the tyrone’s in the bar where you are working in and if your not there the other bouncers should have.
i did… the man didnt get hit with the ashtray… he was in a different bar on a different night when he put the other person in the hospital. what you dont get is as a bouner as a cop. i cant stop someone until they do something to you!!! i if bouncers kicked every a hole out, how many custmoers would be left?
so in truth, big people can handle their own crap UNTILL they assault someone. escalation can happen so fast that you cant prevent it… you can only stop it once it starts.
and then if its like this:
Deputy District Attorney Sophia Roach said Cravens and four other men wanted revenge for a previous confrontation with Kauanui at a bar. She said Cravens punched the 24-year-old, who hit his head on the concrete and died four days later of brain swelling.
doesnt take much once the situation gets away from you. does it.
and to the prey victimologist there touthing the pc line… that is not true… thats the idea of some idiot sitting in an office who interviews people and then decides that they can sell such an idea to the prey… it makes it more pleasurable to the attacker.
i grew up in a bad area… i learned how people really are across a wide spectrum from that. very good, and very bad. chiarscuro in life. as a child i knew very good heroin addicts, and very bad police..
the ivory tower has it wrong… because the people in the ivory tower are the geeks who got abused.. (until i got big, i was one too).. a geek who stands up and doesnt have backing is a TARGET… look up TALL POPPY SYNDROME… the bent nail attracts the hammer… the noisy uppity victim attracts the attention.
as i said… its no sweat off my back… i wont be there…
but do realize that MOST polite peopel will back down. some will start an altercation. some starting the altercation finds it sexually stimulating! a few will take umbrage… some wont back down, and your now in a bad situation that is hard to get out of if your on the downside. some will back down, but because they have borderline personalities, they will attach themselves to you as a cause. this is how people get followed home from the bar, and the person they stared down, takes passive aggressive revenge on them.
ALL these other things we forget about when we start to juggle whether teaching an as s a life lesson.
you dont owe as ses a life lesson!! you dont want to pay the bill for their education. your not going to actually teach them a lesson. that is a victim fantasy. i stood up, it worked and now that person will cahnge as they go through life.
no… all they did was juggle the situation and their goals for the evening.. and whether they are on vacation from anotehr country and no one knows them, or they are local and a regular..
remembe, everything that happens in vegas stays in vegas? we think of sex, but the truth is it can be punching some jerky woman (as they see it) during vacation, and then going back home telling everyone how you werent a victim of the jerky woman. so much for a cvictim based society.
look. i dont care whether advice si followed or not. you get what you pay for… but the bottom line here is that if she follows the wrong persons advice here. SHE WILL PAY THE BILL, NOT THE ADVISOR WHO IS EXPERMENTING IN HER LIFE WITH PC CORRECT ANSWERS.
when i did volunteer ambulance work in the suburbs as a teen, it was not uncommon to see girls who acted like men (napoleon complex) push someone too far, and end up with no front teeth, a concussion, blood all over… and never see the otehr person again…
their life was changed… no one learns the lesson…
and the teacehr foots the bill for forcing the otehr to be a student.
personally, risk witout reward, is stupid.
many here seem to think that their lifes are some form of judgment and lesson machine for some false cause. well, the cannon fodder to the cause dont get to enjoy the results.
take care, good luck, all.. ya got what ya paid for.
so dont complain that it isnt what you wanted.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:46 am
oh.. one quick note..
bouncers are not cops. they dont get paid that much, and often do it to meet ladies… and have social cache.
dont think that a guy getting less than minimum wage bevause he is big enoughto make people think twice that he is going to save you from your own stupidity!!!!
we dont.. we let you learn your lesson..
why? because next time, the lady becomes th jerk, and pushes byttons so that the bouncer rescues her and i have more trouble each week.
nope… you let them fight, break it up, eject both, and do your job.
your job is to protect the premises from these kinds of idiots! not to protect the idiots from each other and risk your life and all you own and your future to give them a lesson.
i cant stop an argument, i can stop an assautl from going farther. one is protected by the constitution, the other, i can make a citizens arrest. however, we dont do that. we dont want the club to get a bad name, get closed down, etc.
so we would stop liability… eject the idiots, and send them off property… if they come back, get police to eject them.
but if they end up down the block killing each otehr how is that my job? while i am, a nice guy and would stop such even if i am not being paid, i do so knowing i can get killed doing so. (often the fighters will turn on the one breaking it up, then after beating them, turn back to each other)
to believe the your protectors are going to save you is to be a fool. unless you pay body guards, your going to be vulnerable at some point. the rest all depends on how hungry the other person is. and none of what i said is gender specific.
it can happen as simply as this
Yetta Kurland, the women were followed from the bar by “a mob of nine to 12 young adults.”5) Another report said the crowd consisted of three females and nine males. The crowd gathered around them shouting slurs, throwing objects, and spitting at them before attacking.
yeah its wrong… but what does that have to do with protecting oneselve and not being an example for the cause?
by the way… she didnt know if he had friends wlling to take care of things for him indirectly, does she?
if yor not going to assess things from reality… your going to get yourself into situations in whcih ot only could you avoid, but you will not be able to handle.
when i was a kid… they advised women to fight back.. but when the study was recasted… they found that the resutls were skewed. the first study shows that when women fought back, they got away… what the first study didnt have that the second study did, was to include the women who were killed when fighting back. you see, the deaths were not in the other numbers, so it appeared that fighting back against a sociopath might be good… but it turned out that it caused the other one to enjoy it more, and caused them to die more often… so yes, some got away alive with less harm… but more showed up in the morgue… and the safest was to comply and talk to the attackeer as a person so that you become a person. though if they are sociopathic, your just wasting your time.
most people have no idea how many sociopaths there are, and how myuch damage they do. do some reasearch, you may find like most others, that some of the worst incidences in your lives were caused by sociopaths that you didntk now weret hat way since you dint know how to tell.
take care, good luck all.
December 17th, 2008 at 9:54 am
The tactic is known as tiger kidnapping or tiger robberies, due to the way the beast follows its prey before it strikes.
just remember that when they look for a target, someone that crosses them of note, becomes the target. ESPECIALLY if they can jam the situation down heir throat.
remember when you go to bars, you are swiming with this kind of person
“I was followed from the bar I worked in. I got a tap on the shoulder. They put a shotgun into my mouth and they said my name,” he said.
“They had no masks or anything. I knew them. What do you do? Do you struggle with them and waste your life?
“As soon as they mentioned they had my parents held hostage you do everything you can to help them.”
After handing over money, the man was dumped into the back of a car and it was abandoned at Edenderry.
“I feel sorry for the people who have been robbed in the past. I got no help. I am still affected to this day. What hurt me the most was that people didn’t believe me.”
and sometimes they come back to the bar over and over till they find the person that got their goat.
remember what happened to kitty genovese? (i grew up in ny i remember)
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2001/04/16/2001-04-16_for_whom_the_bell_tolls_kitt.html
It was her custom to park her car outside the Long Island Rail Road station just a fast walk from her flat. Apparently, shortly after 3 on this chilly Saturday morning, she had realized that she’d been followed from the bar – followed from Jamaica Ave. to the Grand Central Parkway to Queens Blvd. to 82nd Road to Austin St., followed into the dark LIRR parking lot – and she had started to run.
She was almost at the safety of her door when the man with the knife caught her.
SHE SCREAMED and she screamed and she screamed, as 38 of her neighbors watched from their windows.
“Leave that girl alone,” one of them shouted down.
They watched as the startled attacker fled. They watched as the bloodied woman staggered down the street, stumbled into a doorway and collapsed.
And they watched as, 10 minutes later, her killer sauntered back and, without further interference and altogether at his leisure, finished her off.
she did nothing to get his attack! nothig at all but being the wrong person at the wrong palce in the path of the wrong other person.
but if you think that rescue will always come, remember custer.. remembver the people in the towers… remember the old couple you saw being washed away at bandah acer.
life is not the movies…
December 17th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Dude. It’s called spellcheck. It’s not expensive.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Wow, I realize I should study up on this crime prevention and preparedness stuff sometime. Do you have any titles you could recommend?
December 17th, 2008 at 11:09 am
Wowsers. The kind of commentary that bursts forth whenever some lass decides enough’s enough really makes me think that they should be doing it more. If it makes pompous asses get that riled up, they must be doing something very right.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Okay dude. We are done now. You can use as many words as you want, and be as oooh-scary as you like, but you’re done abusing my comments section. Return, and you will be deleted.
My seatbelt may trap me in some small subset of accidents rather than saving me, but I won’t stop using it. I may contract necrotizing fasciitis when I step in a shower, but I’m not going to stop showering. I may catch rabies from a wild animal, but I’m not going to stop going outside. And I’m not going to ditch a habit learned from *actual* self-defense professionals that deters far more predators looking for easy prey because artlflugl the misogynist bouncer says it’ll get me killed. And dude? For the record? I don’t hang out in bars.
December 17th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
I believe it. I read Breda’s older post about gun-chick mentallity, and I think there is extention beyond mentallity. As any basic how-not-to-get-mugged manual/article will describe, certain ways of walking or carrying one’s self make one look like an ideal victim. On the correllary, it would make sense that situational awareness, of the type built on a range, or with mere frequent thinking about not-being-victimized, would have a particular look or swagger about it. I’ve often worried that look like I could be easily wrestled into the trunk of a car. I worry about being vulnerable to attacks every time someone I don’t know sees me walking up to my small, ground-floor apartment by myself. As my range-fathers have told me, I have a “not-approachable” look and walk. I’d like to think that this is a reason why I am seldom approached or harrased. But since that’s not sound reasoning, I will continue to carry my firearm and hope to build the kind of always-on-alert mentallity, such as that exhibited by Breda.
December 18th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Bah. Anyone who risks limbs for less than minimum wage has to be pretty dense. I made pretty good money most of the time when I did that work…
As I said, I’ve been studying the subject most of my life. To not resist (in reasonable quantity) invites further aggression. Seen it many, many times. And most of the people we know have the tools to defend themselves against even vewwy, vewwy scawwy people.
December 27th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
I adore Breda for the same reason she likes Sarah Palin and Dick Cheney. She pisses off all the right people. Artfuldgr: You are wrong, as Pawnbroker was wrong. Breda was there, she made a judgment, and acted upon it in the space of maybe 10-15 seconds. And I agree with John upon his estimate of your density. I’ll put the biker bar where I worked, -Maximum Capacity 300- up against your 1600 capacity club. On our best -most mannerly- night, and your worst, our patrons would have eaten yours for snacks.
Besides anyone ever hurts Breda in any way that matters, I’ll make a roadtrip to track them down and skin them…..
…and pout horribly when I find out either Tam, Roberta, or Brigid (saving my favorite for last), have long since beaten me to the punch……
December 27th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I think there might be a couple of things being missed here:
First, I don’t think Artful Dodger is completely wrong, but he misses a key point, IMO. That is, Breda is willing to take the consequences of her actions in standing up to vermin. My reading of the incident and of the discussion is that, regardless of other considerations, she feels that taking her space is worth the (possibly far-fetched) possibility of an out-of-control reaction. My take, FWIW, is Good for her. She is trained and willing. If it goes suddenly bad, she will take the consequences.
However, others who read about her (not those who go to her site) may not understand just how ready she is. Then trying to put themselves into her shoes, they could easily endanger themselves and others, by trying to stand up to a pit bull, thinking it’s a terrier. This is a situation that many in the LE community and security gigs, see all the time. It is this that AD was trying (badly and over-verbosely) to address, I think.
John Shirley makes a point that I don’t see often enough: resist in reasonable quantity. Clearly Breda was. But his next point I would disagree with from my own experience: That most of the people we know have the tools… Most of the people I know DON’T have either the tools or the experience to know how far to take it, of what to do if it goes sour. I believe it was to them that AD was speaking.
I would love for more people to begin the standing up to process. I would like them to get some training, people skills, and arms training. But, I don’t know how to encourage them. and getting them killed seems too permanent.
Anyway, nice blog. I’ll be back.
December 27th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Yogi: I won’t argue with you there, but when John says “most of the people we know”, I believe he’s talking about the larger blogosphere of which we are one niche- which tends to be heavily self-defense oriented. In that context, most of the people we “know” ARE ready to deal with the next level of consequences.
As for Artful Dodger, whatever legitimate points he may have had were rather effectively drowned out in the tidal wave of poorly-written condescension.
As for people who may or may not be encouraged… well, that’s the consequence with everything we write. Breda writes from the perspective of a small disabled woman who has slowly claimed the confidence, tools, training, and yes, mindset to do something that seems very small and simple to most men to the point that they don’t think about it- claim space back when a garden-variety bully pushes them out of it. True, sometimes a garden-varety bully turns out to be a psycho in disguise, but the odds are still on the horse rather than the zebra.
I actually do think this is part of it- from an average man’s experience, someone willing to shove into your space is a LOT more likely to turn out to be majorly aggressive, just because that’s something very few sane men are willing to do to one another. A lot more of them are willing to do it to an apparently passive woman.
Anyway, your point is a valid one, but I think Breda still did the right thing in both her original action and in writing about it.
January 25th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
I just want to say, I still want “World Peace”, stay away from places which you think is full of people who would bully you. The “stare” method is very useful only for dogs because the possibility that you will get hurt is still much higher when you deal with human bullies than stray dogs.
January 25th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
Unlike stray dogs, human bullies are generally quite conscious of their surroundings and the proximity of a phone or bouncer- like, say, a crowded bar full of people versus a dark alley.
Basically all the self-defense professionals I’ve read identify several stages to a potentially violent encounter, one of which is an evaluation of the would-be victim’s level of awareness and level of passivity. Being percieved as passive, for the average predatory critter, makes you a better candidate for victim-of-the-evening, not safer. If you have any well-sourced information to the contrary to back up your claim, please provide.
January 29th, 2009 at 8:25 am
This is fascinating. Both the Artful Dodger and those responding to him are correct. You are talking past one another to a certain extent.
AD points out that the outcome of an interaction with a VCA (violent criminal actor) is likely to be very bad for the victim of the attack. The rest of you respond that there are ways to avoid being a victim. Both points of view are correct.
AD says that he has seen problems with a lot of the ways people respond to escalating encounters with possible bad people – including the “don’t be a victim” mindset and behavior. The rest of you state that your responses will either de-escalate the encounter or provide you a chance to fight-to-win. Both points of view are correct.
AD points out that there can be bad consequences either immediately, too quickly to defend against (teeth punched out with no warning), or from initially uninvolved persons (unseen accomplices gang up on you), or later at a time of the VCA’s choosing (following you out of the bar, or even to your home). The rest of you point out that the “don’t be a victim” training and attitude and behavior can lead to de-escalation, or prepare you for action against the intrusive boor either immediately (defensive measures), from initially uninvolved persons (others coming to Breda’s defense), or later at a time of your choosing (skinning them, if Tam et al., haven’t yet done so). You are both correct.
I have three data points to offer, for your consideration. First, my younger brother, who frequented bars much more than I did as a youth, says that in his one bar fight, the fight lasted just as long as it took his opponent to swing a pool cue against his head, starting without warning. The rest was him being on the ground semiconscious. Fortunately for him the fight stopped there. So AD seems correct in the details of what he has seen from that example. NO defense or de-escalation or retreat or was possible in this drunk-ambush. No reason for it, either, other than the attacker was a drunk asshole.
Second, my older brother, who also frequented bars more than I did, and is a big, burly fellow, often complained about the girls who would try to get him in trouble with their boyfriends/dates/pickups by loudly flirting with him, usually by asking him to buy them a drink, while the other guy sat on the very next stool getting pissed off. My brother sometimes left, sometimes bought the girl a drink (or tried to – he is not a nice person), or de-escalated by telling the guy, along with the girl, a story about his bar fights over girls while in the 82nd Airborne, and why that sucked so much. So AD seems correct in the details of what he has seen in this also.
Third, I am the runt of my family litter. I also must have had “wide-eyed naive kid” tatoo’ed on my forehead in invisible ink some time when I was asleep during my teen years. I was approached aggressively by every panhandler, hooker, con man, and other street person I passed on the street, in bus stops, outside stores, and elsewhere until I was about 25 years old and put on a little bulk and a more mature look. After I had been conned out of “bus fare” a couple of times, and wised up, I developed some non-agressive but helpful verbal methods of dealing with these vermin. Saying, “No thank you!” very loudly to their entreaties while continuing to move quickly past them caused them no end of confusion. However, a few times I had to quickly evade their drunken attempts at follow-ups (once with a knife). I have unceremoniously crossed streets multiple times to avoid contact, climbed backwards over newspaper vending machines to put something between me and the drunk, picked up large rocks and large sticks off a vacant lot I was passing to hold conveniently while I walked past them, screamed my head off using loud rude words in parking lots to attract other folks attention, and threatened to dispense gasoline on one person who would not move off while I filled my car, on various occasions. I have also reached into my pocket and unfolded a knife, and reached under my jacket to take a grip on an IWB holstered handgun, to prepare for what might have been unavoidable followups. And I have tried really hard to lead an uneventful life. So far all of that has worked.
May I commend Breda on the success of her de-escalation of the bar boor situation (it was a de-escalation; the actions stopped). May I also commend AD on his correct points that de-escalation may not always work, and that the outcome of some undesired encounters will be bad in some cases.
January 29th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Mikee- yep, you’ve got it down. My issue with AD was not that I wasn’t aware some of what he was saying was correct, but that his overall argument seemed to be that people- and women in particular- should be as passive as possible in public. As not only I but a hell of a lot of self-defense experts have said, that doesn’t work- for a lot of predatory types, that paints a target on your back. Well, that and he was condescending as hell, never used one sentence when twenty-five would do, and didn’t have the courtesy of making all that readable; I enjoy long comments like yours, but you’re aware that reasonable paragraph breaks and punctuation other than ellipses are a friend to the reader.
I (and Stingray, the other author here) are well aware that there is a lot of violence out there and that being armed and spunky will not protect you from it. We’ve both lived in or around dangerous areas, and we never seek out a confrontation- or, for that matter, deliberately spend our time anywhere predators are likely to congregate. Like, say, bars anywhere on the rougher side of “yuppie watering hole”. Neither of us- nor, for that matter, Breda- ever want to encounter a situation where de-escalation is impossible; that’s where the AVOID part that is 95% of staying safe comes in.